The Gaming Den

RobbyPants wrote:Well, yes, but they don't believe that.

Doctrine of Infant Damnation.

Yeah, if God is going to sent to Hell Children who died before being baptised.. Fuck him.

Although I thought that there was an age limit on that one? Before a certain age, if you weren't baptised.. it was fine. (like 1 year old or maybe 6 months, not sure)

Lago PARANOIA wrote:

RobbyPants wrote:Well, yes, but they don't believe that.

Doctrine of Infant Damnation.

Yes. those beliefs are stupid and paradoxical. Although, on a related note, not everyone believes infants go to hell if not baptized.

I imagine cognitive dissonance is most of what's to blame for all of the different denominations.

sabs wrote:Yeah, if God is going to send to Hell anyone, Fuck him.

Fixed that for you!

I'm okay if he sends Ted Bundy to Hell. There are people who have definitely earned a few hundred years of damnation.

Not that I really believe in Hell. I guess one day I'll find out if I was right or not.

sabs wrote:Yeah, if God is going to sent to Hell Children who died before being baptised.. Fuck him.

Although I thought that there was an age limit on that one? Before a certain age, if you weren't baptised.. it was fine. (like 1 year old or maybe 6 months, not sure)

Who knows. Different people have different beliefs when it comes to this sort of stuff. So far as I know, when it comes to baptism, most of anything mentioned in the Bible is fairly vague and open to all kinds of interpretation anyway, so anytime someone states some firm belief about baptism, they're really just making shit up.

A pretty good portion of Christian canon is just shit people added on top of the Bible, and a lot of people don't even realize this.

Paradise Lost has to be one of the most hateful expressions of religious bigotry that I've ever seen; like, as much as Left Behind and Tales of Narnia get ragged on, they got nothing on that. Hell, I think it's worse in that regard than Dante's Inferno.

And that wouldn't bother me so much if it was recognized more often and received the standard 'things were different back then'. But no. I guess it just goes to show what a culture of unwarranted privilege Christians have.

Religion is just shit people added on top of other shit people added.
Making a difference between the shit some bishop in 1200 added, vs what some bishop in 300 ad added like it makes a difference.

Hell, Christianity is just shit people added on top of the Torah.
And the Torah is just the ravings of a bunch of old men transforming a Matriarchal society into a Patriarchal one. The Pre-JHVH Jews worshipped a female fertility goddess. That's the whole point of Abraham.

The Koran is just shit people added on top of the bible, added on top of the Torah, which was crap stolen from Babylonian Mythology anyways.

We can go on for a while

The short answer is I don't know.

The part that gets me in trouble is when I say, and neither do you.

sabs wrote:Religion is just shit people added on top of other shit people added.
Making a difference between the shit some bishop in 1200 added, vs what some bishop in 300 ad added like it makes a difference.

Hell, Christianity is just shit people added on top of the Torah.
And the Torah is just the ravings of a bunch of old men transforming a Matriarchal society into a Patriarchal one. The Pre-JHVH Jews worshipped a female fertility goddess. That's the whole point of Abraham.

The Koran is just shit people added on top of the bible, added on top of the Torah, which was crap stolen from Babylonian Mythology anyways.

We can go on for a while

I can explain a lot of things in the same way. Literature, Science, etc. It's all a bunch of shit people keep adding to, heh. Granted, there are different criteria for each...

Yes, that's the point Ted. Nothing makes Religion somehow special. And Certainly, not a damn thing makes Christianity more special than any of the other 30+ religions in the world.

And npc30, it's true. I don't know.
But I'm not the one running around forcing my religion on everyone I meet. And, I don't know that Christianity is right or wrong, but you're asking me to believe that Christianity is maybe right, while assuming that all the other religions in the world are wrong. And that's just stupid. What makes Hindu any less viable religion? Why am I supposed to assume that Buddhism, Shintoism, Daoism, Norse, Greek, Apache, Navajo, aren't right? When they have as much supporting evidence as Christianity.

Christians keep on saying, "what if you're wrong.. and there is a God." Like that's the only fucking option. It's not. And imposing your warped, fucked up beliefs on the rest of us doesn't make it any better.

Also, I am sick and tired of people saying you can't be a moral person if you're not religious. Fuck you, it doesn't take religion to know that Stealing or Murdering someone is bad mmkay?
If the only reason you're a moral person is cause you're afraid of Hell. You're not moral, you're a coward. Real morals is doing the right thing, because it's the right thing, not because there's a reward/punishment system at the end of it.

sabs wrote: Also, I am sick and tired of people saying you can't be a moral person if you're not religious. Fuck you, it doesn't take religion to know that Stealing or Murdering someone is bad mmkay?
If the only reason you're a moral person is cause you're afraid of Hell. You're not moral, you're a coward. Real morals is doing the right thing, because it's the right thing, not because there's a reward/punishment system at the end of it.

It's all carrots and sticks. It's just theirs are bigger and non-verifiable.

I also like how the sole arbiter of what is and is not moral has killed innumerable children because he was pissed at their parents and explicitly condoned rape for several thousand years only to implicitly condemn it later.

sabs wrote: And Certainly, not a damn thing makes Christianity more special than any of the other 30+ religions in the world.

I've told that to one of my christian friends. He didn't have a reply. Although I phrased it along the lines of "I know too many good people who have really been there for me. Some have been atheist, some have been pagan, some jewish, some muslim. I'm not going to dismiss good people without a very compelling reason. Furthermore, if you ARE right and Jesus comes back to send those people to hell, then he's my enemy". He hasn't made an attempt to convert me for over two years.

I also shut up his "intelligent design" argument by saying whoever designed some of these creatures he was using as examples of being designed was an idiot.

Robin Williams has a really funny skit, from years ago.

I think God smokes Marijuana.
What you don't believe me? Just look at the Platipus.
It's a mamal, but it lays eggs, and it has a duck beak.
Hey Darwin! Fuck you.. *inhales*

Hell, the Human body is a fuckup of amazing proportions.
We're born completely helpless, and we stay so for a year.
After that, we take another 4 years.
Our eyes aren't very efficient, our hearing is sub par.
Women have a reproductive organ that's designed for a 4 legged animal.

So. I'm wondering... what exactly is worship?

I always thought that worship was the set of rituals people do to show piety. But apparently it means something different -- because in Epicurus's dilemma an all-powerful (or even very powerful!) being that is not good isn't worthy of worship. Even though it seems pretty obvious to me that such creatures should still actually have worship directed to them. Hell, I'd actually say it'd be more important to worship super-powerful but not benevolent beings than super-powerful AND benevolent beings. Best case, they like you sucking up to them and they slightly reduce the torture. Worst case, they get offended you didn't show the proper submission and torture you for not directing some of your worship to them.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Hell, I'd actually say it'd be more important to worship super-powerful but not benevolent beings than super-powerful AND benevolent beings. Best case, they like you sucking up to them and they slightly reduce the torture. Worst case, they get offended you didn't show the proper submission and torture you for not directing some of your worship to them.

That's basically the Pascal Wager tweaked to apply for DnD. "Don't waste your time on the God of Mercy because if he goes to claim your soul then he'll forgive you. Instead, worship the God of Vindictive Spite in case you wind up standing in front of them after failing your fort save."

The problem with that is of course, that most of these gods are Jealous and Vindictive and petty. So if you worship the God of Spite to keep him happy, the God of Babes and Jealousy might be dickful enough to grab your soul up on the exchange market when it comes up.

And in D&D since your soul actually DOES go to the souls you worship.. worshiping the God of Mercy and Fun After Parties seems like the best choice.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So. I'm wondering... what exactly is worship?

I always thought that worship was the set of rituals people do to show piety. But apparently it means something different -- because in Epicurus's dilemma an all-powerful (or even very powerful!) being that is not good isn't worthy of worship. Even though it seems pretty obvious to me that such creatures should still actually have worship directed to them. Hell, I'd actually say it'd be more important to worship super-powerful but not benevolent beings than super-powerful AND benevolent beings. Best case, they like you sucking up to them and they slightly reduce the torture. Worst case, they get offended you didn't show the proper submission and torture you for not directing some of your worship to them.

Are you asking from our point of view, or from God's point of view?

Supposedly, the whole reason God created everything was to be worshiped, but somehow (according to the believers), this isn't super narcissistic. Or if it is, who are we to question The Almighty?

From a Protestant's view point, it pretty much is a version of Pascal's Wager, because they believe if you don't worship swear an oath of fealty to Jesus, you get tortured for infinity years. Now, I don't think they like this obvious gaming of the system, so they'll say things like "If you really love God, then you worship him because you love him", but if that's true, why do they always bring up hell to nonbelievers?


TL;DR: From God's point of view, it's piety. From our point of view, it's self-serving ass-saving.

worship is basically pleading with a vengeful higher power to keep them from annihilating you.. I lost my faith when I realized that the christian god was a bully.

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So. I'm wondering... what exactly is worship?

I always thought that worship was the set of rituals people do to show piety. But apparently it means something different -- because in Epicurus's dilemma an all-powerful (or even very powerful!) being that is not good isn't worthy of worship.

I don't really understand where your question comes from. Worship is something that shows piety. It's some sort of act that says, "Hey! I'm faithful!" And it seems (from what you're saying) like Epicurus is saying, "Don't be faithful to a being that isn't good."

This really seems like a question that could be answered with a dictionary:

Worship
N. The feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity

If you "adore" and "revere" something that is not good and is in fact abusing you, you are sick and should seek help. Epicurus wins. The end.

-Username17

Ambrose Bierce would say:

"WORSHIP, n. Homo Creator's testimony to the sound construction and fine finish of Deus Creatus. A popular form of abjection, having an element of pride."

There is a god.
He is in my pocket and i hold him in my hand every day.

if i have to believe in something, i believe in odin

Bad news on the Odin front. While it's totally true that the Norse did worship Odin and friends, basically everything we know of the old Norse religion is, at best, influenced by Christian ideas (as part of Operation: don't force our religion onto the guys with axes, instead alter their religion until they are all Christians). At worst, it's a copy-pasta.

Hence Odin the all-father nailing himself to a tree for great justice, and being angry and vengeful, and his son being more human and popular, and the guaranteed clash between good and evil at the end of all time, HEAVEN OR HELL, LET'S ROCK!